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The Shakhtar Identity

#1
Posted 15 January 2010 - 06:20 AM

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I'm writing this explicitly on the pretence you know the club Shakhtar Donetsk (they're a really fucking rich club in the former Soviet Bloc).

Shakhtar are a huge club. Fucking massive. They're rich too, indeed the arms dealing, smuggling and prostitution games all need places to launder money, in recent years various eastern European clubs have received huge influxes of cold hard cash (FC Sheriff Tiraspol, Bunyodkor Toshkent and Shakhtar being prime examples) with the only pre-requisite being no questions asked. Of course this money is put to use forming fabulous squads of Brazillians, overpaid and underplayed. But how is this being transferred into the game?

Well it seems, with Shakhtar Donetsk in mind, the game hasn't quite managed to understand the concept of adhering to the limitations on the number of foreign players allowed in a club's starting line-up (a shrewd but nonetheless sensible ruling adopted by leagues ravaged by unscrupulous chairmen looking for gold). Take a look at this:

Posted Image

What's even more shocking is that in the previous season there was but the sole Ukrainian player in that first team squad. Year upon year they buy glamour players, only to let them squander in their ranks, neither focusing on local talent nor even making attempts to sign them.

For me, this is but another facet of the game, when stripped away, that reveals the fragile nature underneath the shell so finely crafted out of smoke and mirrors.

This isn't an anomaly, consistently non playing personnel are so overtly wrong with their judgements it can only be tasked as a flaw in the game, not a representation of their overall ineptitude (although the frequency of morons is accurately proportionate to real life). From the simple, such as staff members suggesting the top goalscorer in the league is not good enough to play for the club, to the obscure, opposition managers saying your side is not ready to win a competition (but maybe next year with experience) even though you've won the thing four times in a row, to the downright idiotic, like the above example. It all keeps breaking the pace of the game, but not only that, more importantly it destroys the already fragile level of immersion we receive from the game.

It's important to dwell on that word for a paragraph. Immersion, it's the pinnacle of any artistic medium, to engross the participant to the level where they forget that they're lying face down in a cardboard box drinking lighter fluid, if only for a few unbroken minutes, before a dog steals their shoes, is something that this game is supposed to thrive upon. Immersion isn't being told you're a manager, go out and win, it's walking down the street and wondering whether Olexander Shershen should be promoted to the senior squad because Jose Caceres has left on a free transfer to Werder Bremen. But every moment I have like that is spoiled by the reality that I'm just clicking buttons and nothing will ever really happen. I sit in a press conference and for the thirty third time I'm asked whether this is my dream job, how I plan to manage my players or what flavour condoms my wife likes.

I get the feeling sometimes that improvements to the game are being staggered on purpose, the realisation being that whilst this is a relatively in depth game, the only real improvements that can be made are on a sophistication level, but taking the time and effort to craft the game how it should be would not be beneficial on a cost basis.

Of course my cynicism is probably unfounded, but the fact I feel that way suggests a certain degree of naivety on the part of Sports Interactive. They've almost completely forgotten that the game is a simulation, they're moving in the same direction as Electronic Arts, trying to please the crowd, hold hands, thrust the continue button in the faces of the great unwashed and tell them that's all that's needed, assuming, quite correctly, that the vast majority will eat it up in all its shiny glory because their love of football will overwhelm the wooden nature of the product. I mean that has to be said doesn't it, the amount of money generated from football is directly correlated to the growth in children and general idiots who now follow football, buying all manner of shit to feel attached.

The amusing thing was that if the game didn't use real players or teams, very few people would play it, because that's the only reason they do so, they only want to have another channel of self worth. The sad situation is that there is no viable challenger to this throne, no real contender that would make Sports Interactive work. One only has to look at the leaps and bounds Pro Evolution Soccer made in quickly surpassing the lazy developers at Electronic Arts to see that it is possible. But not only that, the overhaul and regenerated enthusiasm of the FIFA team has led to a vastly superior football playing simulation from the previous five years.

Compare that with the development of Football Manager and it is quite appalling. We've got a wooden media system, a redundant 3d match engine, a tactics creator and a slightly simpler training system. But it is accepted because there is no alternative. There's nothing we can do, but wait, hope and pray that Championship Manager beats Football Manager, causes the necessary shake up that the series demands. Immersion.

I'll say it again, Immersion. I want to feel as though I exist in a living football world. I want to be thought of as a cog in a world I can not control. Clubs have politics, fans have influence, the media ruins and makes me. Matches feel visceral, the implications of defeat more damning, the ecstasy of victory more ethereal. I don't want to feel as I do now, a puppet master pulling the strings, vaguely grasping to those fleeting moments where I can pretend to be a real boy.

That's what Football Manager has become now. Like Shakhtar Donetsk it doesn't know if it is a Football Club or a showcase. It doesn't seem to care either because like Shakhtar Donetsk it has the money and as long as sales are strong, what need is there to change. Being the fastest sprinter at the special olympics is not an achievement, for some people it is, but I aspire to a higher level of quality.

My dream for 2010 is for Championship Manager 2011 to be better than Football Manager 2011, for the sake of the future of the series and for the future of football management simulation as a whole. Unlike Shakhtar they have no Dinamo Kiev and that's what they need.

This post has been edited by Fantastic: 15 January 2010 - 06:37 AM

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#2
Posted 15 January 2010 - 06:43 AM

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This isn't only to do with Shakhtar or with the rich Eastern European clubs in general, look at all the teams around Eastern Europe in particular. There are instances where teams can't successfully field enough domestic players, that the CPU actually fields goalkeepers in outfield slots. It just destroys the realism of the game, it's beyond ridiculous. Fuck, even in Israel it's the same thing and again, it's ruined my game.

Posted Image

This is the squad I inherited at Hapoel Nazareth. Now, the federation only allows THREE foreigners in the starting eleven but as you can see with my case, the number of foreigners far outweigh the number of Israeli players. Now it's a pain in the ass to ship out all of these foreigners, as it undoubtedly tinkers with team morale. It just ruins the game. I only find this fucking cancer in Eastern Europe though, hence why I only tend to manage in South America.

It's like SI don't even give two fucks about the less glamorous leagues, I couldn't agree more.


Posted Image
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#3
Posted 15 January 2010 - 06:52 AM

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Ivory Coast running out of goalkeepers a few years into the game was another particular highlight for me.
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#4
Posted 15 January 2010 - 07:09 AM

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Done some quick research.

Poland - Fine, they have 17 slots for foreigners, yet still the most the top club has is 6 (Wisla).

Romania - Fucked, double the limit.

Ukraine - Fucked, double the limit.

Russia - The worst of the lot, sometimes triple the limit.

Serbia - Fucked, double the limit.

Slovenia - Fucked, double the limit.

Slovakia - Fine, realistic.


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#5
Posted 15 January 2010 - 07:17 AM

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And then you look at the squad I left Dnipro with:

Posted Image

Two of those players, Tasic and Millan, hold Ukrainian passports, which leaves three foreign players in the entire starting line up. In six years at that club I bought a grand total of six foreign players. The only foreign player mistake I made was Darlan, who was quickly farmed off to Villarreal. Foreign players should only ever be bought if a viable local option is unavailable. Common fucking sense.
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#6
Posted 15 January 2010 - 08:57 AM

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Couldn't agree more with you.

The amount of foreign players in Eastern Europe, is at best, ludicrous, and this is why i so far averted from accepting any Russian offers in my current game, looking at the squads i was appalled, how can this happen when all they can field at once is 6 only, some teams have only 2 or 3 russians in the entire squad, and they're quite large squads, I'm a big fan of local talent, no matter how demanding or expensive they may be, i feel buying from outside is weak on some level.

As for the second part, another great point, FM is heading in a direction unopposed, which is the result of lack of competition and rivalry, they set the standard, not us, having no choice will never allow us to, if you want a management game it's FM, a fraction only play the CM series. Competition is essential for better quality.

Top, top write mate Posted Image

Quote

The rich and powerful piss on us, and the media tells us its raining

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#7
Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:15 AM

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View PostFantastic, on 15 January 2010 - 07:52 AM, said:

Posted Image

Ivory Coast running out of goalkeepers a few years into the game was another particular highlight for me.


That gets on my tits so much with African nations. Its been a problem for fucking years and SI still havent sorted the problem with GKs out. It would be such a simple thing to sort aswell, if the DB is large enough for you to manage the nation then it should be large enough to guarantee a decent pool of real and generated players.
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#8
Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:29 AM

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I quit my Chita game because of this, having a goalkeeper in the outfield pissed me off..

Something SI needs to fix immediately
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#9
Posted 16 January 2010 - 07:54 AM

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View PostCruijff, on 15 January 2010 - 11:15 AM, said:

That gets on my tits so much with African nations. Its been a problem for fucking years and SI still havent sorted the problem with GKs out. It would be such a simple thing to sort aswell, if the DB is large enough for you to manage the nation then it should be large enough to guarantee a decent pool of real and generated players.


So much emphasis is placed on the game being smooth and streamlined, it does beg the question of whether long term testing takes place. I takes a while for these errors to start tumbling out, but how aware is Sports Interactive that they exist?
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#10
Posted 16 January 2010 - 08:50 AM

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View PostFantastic, on 16 January 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

So much emphasis is placed on the game being smooth and streamlined, it does beg the question of whether long term testing takes place. I takes a while for these errors to start tumbling out, but how aware is Sports Interactive that they exist?


They used to do the open testing didnt they?

Maybe its worth bringing something like that back, theres always a risk of someone leaking but there must be a way of tracing leaks through each game having a specific ID or each game must be connected online, something like that. If they from when FM11 was near playable right up to the first patch then they would definitely cover their bases a lot better. The SI lot can always say "We're too busy to do major testing, we're making the game better all year long!!!" But surely they could build a big team of testers and just have them report back for months and months?
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#11
Posted 16 January 2010 - 08:57 AM

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I can understand it from their point. Open testing never really works because the vast majority do it just to get the game early. I was a tester for a number of years and never bothered to help them.

What they should do is ask people who have the game when it comes out to report on issues over extended periods of time, be honest and say they've never really gotten to 2030 so they don't know what kind of errors to find there. If people could help them out it would make future versions muc... blah blah blah, you get the point.


Sometimes all we want as consumers is a little bit of humility and admittance that this is a hell of a beast to tame, you need our help. Instead, as time has gone on, they've become more and more insular, relying upon a self appointed cabinet of experts who, quite frankly, do not represent the majority.
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#12
Posted 16 January 2010 - 09:10 AM

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If they do have that problem with testers then maybe they can boot them off. If the open testing wouldnt work maybe SI could approach a good amount of people from the scene to test it at first, then a bit later in its life it can go open, so the hardcore players can identify a lot of the problems and others can just pick away at it for a bit.

They really do seem too concerned with sorting out the big things instead of making the smaller things better. If Im being honest a 3D engine doesnt interest me at all, if I want that I can play FIFA and it will be a million times better. Im more interested in the smaller things that affect my management, stuff like we've been talking about the Managers Stats. Its been the same for years and its hardly been touched, if its been touched at all. SI are probably gonna keep the focus on the match engine though to try and make people who wouldnt normally buy FM to buy it and to keep those who say they adore it happy. Thats fine, but they really do seem to be overlooking a lot of other things that could be improved.
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#13
Posted 16 January 2010 - 09:16 AM

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Indeed, for me, the flavour of this year's focus has to be immersion. They made some minor in-roads with the backroom advice, but they need to be far more detailed in making the manager's experience more visceral.

With regards to testing, I think an expanded feedback team should be employed and a proactive attempt to use the hundreds of thousands of hours clocked up by players following the release to collate a wide selection of problems, where things are going right, where it needs to be improved. A sort of community reach out aimed at helping to better the product, a customer survey with a very real purpose.
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#14
Posted 16 January 2010 - 09:44 AM

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View PostFantastic, on 16 January 2010 - 10:16 AM, said:

Indeed, for me, the flavour of this year's focus has to be immersion. They made some minor in-roads with the backroom advice, but they need to be far more detailed in making the manager's experience more visceral.

With regards to testing, I think an expanded feedback team should be employed and a proactive attempt to use the hundreds of thousands of hours clocked up by players following the release to collate a wide selection of problems, where things are going right, where it needs to be improved. A sort of community reach out aimed at helping to better the product, a customer survey with a very real purpose.


Urgh Backroom Advice. In my opinion thats the biggest pile of shite since Obafemi Martins being 23. I just find it so repetitive and boring, if I could compare it to one thing it would be press conferences. The staff give no justification as to why I should make player X my captain and why player Y should be trained to place his shots. Every time I check it they are telling me the same things, it has potential but it needs more detail in a lot of areas.

Maybe they could incorporate something like Report A Bug, click the option it you have your save game uploaded to the SI servers, the reason why its a bug and/or a few screenies(as opposed to the whole save) Yes there will be a lot of shit that gets uploaded but it would be worth it if a few more bugs that happen while playing are sorted.
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#15
Posted 16 January 2010 - 02:33 PM

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that needs to be posted up on the SI froums.

View Postalilane4, on 02 September 2009 - 03:47 PM, said:

Keith is the fountain of knowledge, if he's wrong then i don't want to live on this strange planet.

View PostJs?l?sl?sl?sl, on 14 January 2010 - 09:50 PM, said:

Mal: a slightly less funny hendo
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#16
Posted 16 January 2010 - 02:49 PM

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Thanks Keith.
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#17
Posted 16 January 2010 - 02:57 PM

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View PostCruijff, on 16 January 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Thanks Keith.


ah shadap!!

I havent noticed this yet in Switzerland, though I am only in the 1st season obvioulsly. The rules in Switzerland arent as harsh, 10 non-EU in your squad and a max of 5 in your starting XI. Basel are the most likely for it to happen to, lots of money and an eye for South Americans. Only time will tell, hope they can keep the ratio down though, I wanted a race for the title with em but they're languishing in 5th already.

View Postalilane4, on 02 September 2009 - 03:47 PM, said:

Keith is the fountain of knowledge, if he's wrong then i don't want to live on this strange planet.

View PostJs?l?sl?sl?sl, on 14 January 2010 - 09:50 PM, said:

Mal: a slightly less funny hendo
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#18
Posted 16 January 2010 - 03:02 PM

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What puts and always was putting me off is absolute stupidity of the AI. When I wanted to have some fun with Free DB in 08, it came out that everyone forgotten there's no players in their teams and played with youth. Absolute madness.

And when I was to face Chelsea in the UCL semifinals, after ripping the other teams apart it came out they are decent as well. They left me rip apart, losing all of the pro's I ever had.

It ruined the game absolutely, and when I see things like that, I'm just mad. It is not supposed to happen in a top football management games, that the game doesn't obey the rules made by the game! It is going in borders of paradox and I feel it has to be sorted out.

Some SERIOUS changes need to be made, if CM will be better I hope SI will get going. I thought there's nothing like that until I saw a match when Tottenham eased past Olympique Lyonnais with best eleven and when I saw that Tottenham had -3 (!) shots wide!

Seriously, it's something wrong here.
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#19
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Posted 16 January 2010 - 03:09 PM

Excellent opening post. I'd never given your points much thought in absolute honesty, but it is a very awakening piece of writing.

It's odd to think we're so happy with a franchise that we know could be better, and maybe should be better - but the question is whether they have the ability to be much better in the short term. They're a small studio and may not have the manpower to produce a more in-depth game. Although having said that, they're part of SEGA now...

I think they're making steps in the right direction, they've given a fresh interface (which we should have for a while), they've added a simpler format to the tactics and they've added some more staffing features which add realism.

I do concur though - the brand needs immersion and I'd hope that we get it soon enough. As long as we can see development, I don't think we can complain too much - I think the company do ask and look to add what we want in the game - they maybe just need to hear some more radical voices.

As for Championship Manager 2011 - I wouldn't get your hopes up. It's not a brand which has evolved and subsequently it's massively unlikely that they'll trump a hard-working team like SI have or a growing (small or not, a growing) brand.
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#20
Posted 16 January 2010 - 03:12 PM

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I dont think we're happy with the franchise as much I think we all realise theres no competition. FM has probably got a bit complacent with many features due to the fact they know that CM and FIFA Manager arent going to beat them for sales. The only thing I can compare it to is WCW vs WWF in th 1990s, both of them were going at it every week for the ratings and the real winners were the fans. FM needs a WCW so it can up its anti and we'll be the real winners as hopefully we'll get a choice between two, maybe three quality management games.
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